Morning,
No messing around today as we have a legend of dub and verse in the house. Yes, our old Q colleague and current Mojo slavedriver Simon McEwen is guest interviewing for us, getting into it with On-U Sound supremo Adrian Sherwood. Sherwood guides us through 40-plus years at the cutting edge of rhythm and bass sounds, including his instantly recognisable production work for everyone from Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry, Horace Andy, Bim Sherman and African Head Charge to Depeche Mode, Sinéad O’Connor, Primal Scream and, most recently, Spoon, amongst many, many others. While all the while running one of Britain’s most idiosyncratic and greatest independent labels, On-U Sound [in the area!].
Someone on Spotify made a playlist of all of On-U Sound’s releases available on the platform. It’s eighty hours long, but it’s curated. Recommended.
OK, let’s hand the mic to Simon. We’ll see you on Wednesday. Enjoy the edition and have a lovely week,
Ted, Niall and Chris.
Start The Week With…Adrian Sherwood
Dub don and On-U Sound label owner Adrian Sherwood is one of the UK’s most innovative and influential producers of modern reggae and cutting-edge electronica. Since the late ’70s, Adrian has applied his trademark echo chamber sound – cavernous bass, syncopated rhythms, mind-melting effects, sampled voices, electronic textures – to an array of talent including such On-U stalwarts as Prince Far I, Bim Sherman, Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry, Creation Rebel, New Age Steppers, Dub Syndicate, African Head Charge, Gary Clail and Mark Stewart. This inter-racial family of singers and players has always operated within its own universe, reconstructing (and deconstructing) post-punk, industrial, blues, electro and reggae through the prism of dub.
In 1984, Adrian hooked up with former Sugarhill Gang members Skip McDonald, Keith LeBlanc and Doug Wimbish to form Tackhead and made some wonderfully uncategorisable beats-and-samples records. The new sound they made caught the ear of artists from the industrial scene, leading to Sherwood applying his unique sonic aesthetic to the likes of Cabaret Voltaire, Nine Inch Nails, Einstürzende Neubauten and Ministry. A couple of years on, Adrian teamed up with his key influence Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry and helped revive the recording career of the Jamaican legend with the landmark album Time Boom X De Devil Dead. This led to a slew of remix duties for such diverse artists as Depeche Mode, Simply Red, Jah Wobble, Sinéad O’Connor, Coldcut and Primal Scream. More recently, Sherwood has collaborated with Bristol dubstep pioneer Pinch and produced reggae icon/Massive Attack cohort Horace Andy’s latest album, Midnight Rocker. But running such an uncompromisingly independent label for over four decades hasn’t been easy, not least due to a lack of financial reward, yet Adrian seems unbothered and justly proud of a body of work which is pretty much unparalleled in its breadth, quality and class. Here’s a great playlist he made of some of On-U Sound’s heavy dubs and wild cards.
Today, sitting in his home studio in Ramsgate, Kent, Adrian Sherwood is modest about such achievements, while his mood is especially buoyant. The reason? The 64-year-old sonic adventurer is about to get a “funky” new gizmo…
Hi, Adrian, how are you?
Yeah, good thanks, it’s a bit chaotic here today as we’re in the process of moving our studio. So I’ve got my engineer Matt Smyth here with me to help out.
Sounds like a big job. What does it involve?
Well, my place has got a house at the back, which is what I want to sell. It's my son's place. So we’re going to move the studio from there into my house – I want to protect us from the coming Armageddon, haha! I’ve also got the guy from Dolby coming around this afternoon to put in the new system. It’s going be quite interesting – quite funky and idiosyncratic.
Is this the new Dolby Atmos surround sound thing?
Yeah, it’s really interesting. You can position the sound so it feels like it’s coming from behind your head and above your head and below your feet, which is something I’ve always been trying to do anyway. Hopefully we’ll get some quite unusual psychedelic sounds.
Most of your productions have a trippy feel to them. Were you into psychedelics back in the day?
Oh, very much so. I think I first did it in about 1980 with Chris Joyce. He was the drummer in The Mothmen and later Simply Red. We used to take half a tab every day, microdosing, then go to work. Starship Africa [by Creation Rebel] was made doing that. Disconnection by Strange Parcels, too, though that’s quite an obscure On-U album. Skip [McDonald, Tackhead/Little Axe] and I did quite a bit of LSD making The Wolf That House Built. Mushrooms, too, were really good for my head back then. But I don’t do any of that any more. I’ve got the vision and the brains and I’m open to it, but I don't physically want to be trying it now. I actually haven’t smoked cigarettes or weed for over 20 years.
So, in April this year you celebrated over 40 years of On-U Sound with a massive gig at London’s Forum (featuring Tackhead, Mark Stewart, African Head Charge, Horace Andy, Creation Rebel and more). It was some show. Did it get emotional?
I didn’t really get a chance to be emotional because I was so stressed worrying that the whole thing was going to collapse. It was a huge amount of effort, especially post-Covid, getting all the artists together in one place. Sorting visas, work permits, rehearsals and all that. It was mad. But the actual gig was really good and it felt heartwarming.
What’s been the hardest part of running an independent label for so long?
Keeping it all together. I mean, I kept thinking we’d sell ten times more records than we did but I think in hindsight my problem was I never promoted. I never had the courage of my own convictions. I literally put thousands of pounds into the label to keep it running and at one stage we had nine staff but we were still losing money. It was a struggle just to keep the imprint alive. But now it’s literally me and Matt here driving things, and I’ve got my management crew and the team-up with Warp has been great. But it’s tough when you’re not a hit-oriented label, but I’m proud of all my catalogue and I’m not really bothered about [the money]. At the end of the day, you're not doing it because it’s financially rewarding, you’re doing it because you fucking love it… and you don't want to put some crap out. Also, I couldn’t spot a commercial hit if it smacked me in the mouth, haha!
Your biggest influence is probably Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry, who sadly passed last summer. He was a good friend of yours and you made six albums together. What made his so special?
Lee was like a magician. He literally had all these ingredients about him that made him like a magic man. He grew up in Jamaica with his mum who was from a spiritual church background, and he was also studying a kind of Voodoo or whatever you want to call it. So he had an understanding of the kind of black African spirit stuff that was handed down by West African griots, mixed with Christianity, and all these influences bled into his music. He was a pure talent who had a brilliant ear and an amazing ability to engage musicians. He also had an incredible sense of mischief and a child-like wonder about the world. When you were in the studio with him he’d create a sort of ambience of magic and you knew something special was going to happen.
In recent years I think he probably over-recorded himself, but he was like Andy Warhol or some artist who puts his signature on stuff. But everyone who’s ever worked with him would be totally inspired by his energy. And you know, I worked with him when he was in his 80s and he would stand up for eight hours straight. His back was solid! To watch him and work with him was something to behold. I think it was Keith Richards who described Lee as the Salvador Dali of music and I think he was right. And when I look back at the records I made with him, I do think they stand the test of time.
Is it true he once buried your TV in your back garden?
Not exactly, to be honest with you. It was his TV. It was one of those little portable ones which he’d brought back from Hong Kong. Him and his wife had had a little falling out so he was kind of dumped on me before he flew back home to Switzerland. So he’s in my back garden and he digs this hole, puts the TV in it, and on the aerials he sticks these little plastic Japanese monster toys he’d found in the house. I’d bought them in Tokyo for my son Max and they were quite expensive! So there’s me and Bim Sherman just standing at the kitchen door watching and laughing. I’ve actually got video footage of him doing it. It was quite bizarre and very funny.
So you’ve got a new album, Dub No Frontiers. It’s been some time coming…
Yeah, it’s taken about a decade to make. But it’s been an absolute labour of love for me and I’m very proud of it. The idea actually began with Ari Up [The Slits, New Age Steppers] when we made The Scheisse Song together. We wanted to get some great, all-female singers from around the world to sing non-English songs over our rhythms. The idea was to also evolve it into a live show, but you’ve got to capture the imagination of people first before you go there. It’s also got the late, great Style Scott [Roots Radics, Dub Syndicate] playing drums on it – he was a dear old friend of mine who I don’t think is championed enough. So this record is very, very dear to me and I’m pleased it’s coming out on the Real World label because I think they’re the right people to support it.
You’ve been busy, because that’s followed by the dub/soundsystem version of Horace Andy’s Midnight Rocker, Midnight Scorchers, out in September.
Yeah, Horace is a living legend and his voice is still incredible. With Scorchers we didn’t want to just do a dub version, so it’s more of a dubbed-up soundsystem record with MCs Daddy Freddy and Lone Ranger. It’s on a different level to Rocker, which incidentally I think Horace should get a Grammy for because there’s no reggae record globally as good as that. But, personally, I think Midnight Scorchers is better than Midnight Rocker because it goes back to the essence of reggae and what we all loved about it in the first place.
But you’re not one to dwell on the past. You always seem to be exploring and experimenting with new sounds.
Nostalgia really is the death of music. You can’t just rest on your laurels, you need to keep embracing new ideas and new production techniques. I've always had my own funny little timings and little ways of mixing to keep the sound interesting and people seem to like it. And I still feel I’ve got a lot to offer but I’m also well aware that at my age I need to work with young people and move on.
Have you ever done a remix for someone and they didn’t like it?
Not that I know of, but I’m sure there must be some who didn’t but hopefully not too many. I see it as additional production rather than a remix, and that works best when the artist is in the room with you working on it. So when we did Master And Servant with Depeche Mode they were in the studio with me and they were really pleased. Same with Primal Scream when we did Echo Dek, that went really well. But in the ’80s and ’90s there was a lot of record labels going, “Oh, let’s get Adrian in to do one of his weird alternate mixes” but I was never offered the main one, haha! So I was like, “OK, fuck it. I'll take their money to prop up my label.” But I didn't just do it for the money, I did the remixes as a necessity to keep my label going. But Matt and I work very hard on remixes and we’ve just done a whole album for Spoon, which might not seem like an obvious combination, but Britt [Daniel] loves it and we think it’s really, really good.
But, you know, I could’ve closed down the label after Tackhead, around 1989-90, and just concentrated on productions for other people. I’d have been a lot better off but I don't regret it because when I look back on all the records since there’s some great ones and I think at least I’ve made my own path and we’ve done stuff for ourselves, which is good.
Aren’t you working on a new Tackhead LP now?
Yes, but that won’t be ready for another 18 months. There’ll also be a reissue boxset with a booklet and photos, which will probably be out next year.
Tackhead, like most On-U acts, are quite political, something which is often overlooked when talking about your label. Where does that anti-capitalist, anti-authority message come from?
Well, I think the whole dub arena is quite political. I think it brings like-minded people together, people who are very conscious about their impact on the planet, whether that’s about what they eat or how they live. They are a lot more left-leaning than the other way. I've got some really great, conscious lyricists around me like Mark Stewart and Leigh ‘LSK’ Kenny and they’re very serious and have something to say. Also, I'll always veto a lyric if it’s like, “Honey, let me kiss you baby…” There’s none of that. Plus, me being white and a lot of my friends not being white – coming from places all over like India, Africa, Jamaica, Japan or whatever – I think that combination is what makes it interesting. We’re quite conscious of what we’re projecting. Like in the early stages of On-U we did records with Jesse Rae and Alan Pillay [now Lanah P] and that completely destabilized certain people’s perception of us. And I think that was very healthy.
Back in 1980 you shared a squat in Battersea with Neneh Cherry, Ari Up and Jeb Loy Nichols. What was that like?
It was actually Ari’s mum Nora who found us the house. Ari broke in and we managed to live there for a year until we got evicted. So it was me, Ari, Neneh and my friend Junior Williams, who we didn’t realise at the time was having a relationship with Ari and the next thing we know she’s pregnant with twins. And with Jeb, I remember one day this young American guy, he must’ve been about 19, knocks on the door going, “Hi, I’m Jeb, is Neneh in?” And that’s how we met and we’ve been life-long friends ever since. We’ve actually just finished a new record together which will be out later this year. I also remember the night Jeb left the squat which was pretty funny. Jeb’s like the straightest, nicest guy in the world and never takes drugs, but that night Nora’s partner John Lydon came round and gave him a load of speed and he’d never had anything like that before. We stayed up all night with him because he had an early flight the next day – he was speeding all the way back to the States!
I was having an email conversation with your old friend Steve Barker [presenter of BBC Radio Lancashire’s On The Wire] the other day and I asked him if he had a question for you. He wants to know how your memoir’s coming along?
I did about 120 pages but then I stopped because it kept making me depressed. So many great friends have passed and it was making me a bit sad. But then there was a glimmer of a big publishing house being interested, then somebody else came along and suggested we do a sort of On-U coffee-table book. So, to be honest, I need to be motivated to finish it and I need to find the right person who is serious enough to take it on. A lot of people flake out on you… [knock on the door] that’s probably the Dolby man, hold on a minute… Sorry about that. Where were we?
Writing your memoir must’ve brought back happy memories too?
Oh, god, I've got loads and loads. There’s certain things I haven’t written about too. But I’ve been lucky enough to meet and work with so many amazing people. I remember reading a book review of Paul O’Grady’s autobiography in Private Eye and they gave it a really good review, which is unusual because they usually slag everything off. And the reason they said it was great was because the whole book was just about the wonderful people he’d met over the years. It was observational and not just all about him. So I think I’d like to do something like that. You know, I’ve been so lucky, I once spent half an hour in a room on my own with James Brown. Another time I spent three hours chatting non-stop with Quincy Jones. I could go on and on. So, yeah, I’d like to write about all these amazing spirits, and also our own crew who aren’t that well known but are incredibly talented, and maybe focus in on that and intersperse it with a bit of autobiography.
I look forward to reading it if-and-when it comes out. Right, Adrian, I know you’re busy so thanks for your time and good luck with the move.
Thanks. Cheers, Simon.
SM.